I love how they still try to be super polite about it:
"Korean workers are being treated like criminals for building factories that Washington itself lobbied for. If this continues, investment in the US could be reconsidered."
They do have to reconsider it. Korea is very dependent on US investment, and if the USA stops investing in retaliation, it's Korea that suffers greatly.
The only leverage countries have against the US is exporting something that the US wants. Rare earths, electronics, cars, etc.
If they are blackmailed via tariffs to build factories in the US so that the US becomes self-sufficient, there is no leverage at all. So don't build these factories.
European, Japanese, and Taiwanese companies have not done the same shenanigans that Hyundai Group and LG Group are doing with VWP and B1/2 visas.
If they can build battery factories, semiconductor fabs, and various other factories in the US without having to resort to the above visa abuses, why can't Korea Inc?
Heck, Daimler built a similar sized factory to Hyundai-LG's in MS relying only on American labor [0]
That’s a joint venture with two American manufacturers (and Daimler trucks North America itself was an American company it bought out), it’s not a realistic comparison.
Fine. Then how about Japan-domiciled Panasonic [0][1] and Toyota [2], as well as (South Korean) Samsung and Stellantis' gigafactory [3]?
You didn't see similar persistent flouting of labor and immigration laws despite all 3 being lead by Asian (and in some cases Korean) companies with similar organizational structures.
Hyundai played it fast and loose. If Samsung SDI can open a gigafactory in the US while following US laws, why can't Hyundai?
Just because ICE was extremely heavy-handed does NOT absolve or give Hyundai-LG the right to break American labor or immigration laws, or ask for special treatment.
Even Biden bluntly told Hyundai leadership to "Hire American" [4] following pushback over this plant.
I must confess that these specific stories are outside my domain of knowledge that I can’t comfortably comment on them specifically.
My understanding is that it is fairly common practice for foreign companies to send experts from their home countries in order to do knowledge transfer, since the skill set isn’t available domestically.
Yep! It is. The issue has been that Hyundai is trying to bring in long-term technician labor on VWP and B visas, when they should be classified under H2B or L1B.
And the added issue is, most other companies (even Korean ones like Samsung) have been able to bring comparable projects online without ending up with the same scandals.
Hyundai has a common and persistent practice of bringing in Koreans from Korea to work manual labor abroad, and was warned by regulators on multiple occasions about this [0], and even their employees in Korea warned management that they were breaking regulations [0]
Even during the Biden admin we warned Korean companies not to play it fast and loose [0]:
"U.S. Department of Commerce official Andrew Gately warned South Korean companies and their contractors last year not to "cut corners" in visa applications.
"Please do not put your employees or the employees of your contractors at risk," he said at a seminar in Seoul."
This isn't a Kilmar Abrego Garcia situation, especially given that Korean business media is framing this as a "how dare they touch Koreans after we invest" situation instead of as a humanitarian situation. Why should FDI buy impunity - especially when projects like the Hyundai one were funded by IRA subsidizes.
Installing machinery does not fall under the B visa exemption [1]. An engineering manager advising on software would.
I see your concern, and taking what you’re asserting here as a given for the purposes of this conversation, I’d agree it needs to be addressed.
However, it should be addressed at the corporate level, not by targeting the individual workers. They are just doing their jobs under the direction of their employers. Any fraud committed here is by the Hyundai corporation first and foremost.
The treatment of these workers has been exceedingly cruel and should be considered out of bounds in this country, but sadly it has become normalized.
We've done this for over a decade with both Democrats and Republicans in power.
I agree that the treatment was horrendous, but Korean businesses and politicans aren't angry because of the treatment - they are angry because now they cannot use this practice any longer.
The same raid would have happened under the Harris administration, and the same political fallout would have happened.
Even South Korean police continue to use indefinite detention during immigration raids (despite the constitutional court ruling against them) and has notoriously horrid migrant labor rights, so it's very hypocritical when Korean workers arrested were given better conditions than Mongolian, Vietnamese, or Thai migrants caught in similar dragnets in Korea are provided, but there is no interest in Korea to leverage this to better Korea and American labor rights.
ICE has overreached, but then going back and defending Hyundai like a significant number of people are is deeply wrong. The UAw was right to both condemn Hyundai as well as ICE. Yet, a significant portion of people are saying Georgia should be thankful to get this kind of FDI (even though it was thanks to our tax dollars becuase of the IRA).
I’m well aware of the fact that these types of issues have been a part of the system for a long time, nowhere in my string of comments did I indicate that this was an issue of one administration nor one party, I was simply commenting on the case under discussion.
As an American I am not responsible for the actions of another nation, but I am for those of my own. Therefore it is immaterial to me how Korea treats immigrants, at least not when I am discussing the morality of our system.
Either you have a sense of what is right and wrong when it comes to our fellow human beings or you don’t. Feel free to criticize the actions of the Korean government if you want, that does not absolve the US of its own transgressions.
This plant [0] and others like it were all subsidized by the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) [1].
If our tax dollars are going to subsidize the construction and development of these factories, then they better follow our laws.
Hyundai is the only malcontent. Every other IRA project has not had a similar kind of scandal.
If Hyundai doesn't want to participate in American Industrial Subsidizes by following our laws, they can return the billions of dollars in subsidizes provided.
> I'm seeing a lot of demands
Follow our laws if you want our subsidizes.
Hire American if you want our subsidizes.
Biden literally told Hyundai's leadership this same thing point blank. [2]
You also have to wonder how illegal immigration is managed in Korea.
I'm going to assume they take a very different approach from what they are expecting from the US.
> Then fine the companies and don’t shackle the workers
We have been for years now, but Hyundai has not changed their practices in the US.
From child labor [0] to employees literally crushed to death [1] to constant OSHA failures [2] for over a decade [3], Hyundai's leadership has continued to have a horrid track record on worker safety in the United States.
We have been punishing them for decades, but they do not change. If this is the only way to get a message across to Korea Inc, so be it.
> Optics, in international relations, matter a lot.
Of course.
Yet the optics of a company like Hyundai getting hundreds of millions to billions of dollars in state and federal subsidizes but continuing to flout US laws also matters.
As I mentioned before, Samsung hasn't had similar scandals despite investing a similar amount in the US, nor have Hyundai's peers in Japan.
Using the ICE raid to whitewash Hyundai's obscene labor record (like a number of commentators are doing) is ridiculous.
They didn't whitewash anything, read their comment(s) again.
They said to punish the company, but not put hundreds of employees who were told their papers were in order - half of which whose papers were - in literal shackles like they're violent criminals. What the everyday person sees in their news feeds is important and shapes how the US is viewed culturally and as an economic partner.
I'll throw in that we should actually talk about fixing our VISA rules?
> "With H-1B and L-1 work visas, which are harder to obtain, in short supply, Korean firms have routinely rotated engineers through 90-day ESTA entries or short-term B-1 visas to meet tight construction schedules"
As I mentioned multiple times before, this is a callous disregard of US immigration and labor laws.
VW Group has built battery factories in the South as well, and Germany has VWP priviliges as well, but they never abused the VWP or B1/2 program. Same with Japan's Panasonic
Heck, Daimler has built a similar sized gigafactory in MS without resorting to similar shenanigans to Hyundai or LG [2]
This plant that Hyundai-LG has been building has seen multiple, persistent OSHA violations [0] at a rate that is severely higher than comparable projects in the US [1].
If the news was flipped and we saw a report that Tesla is building a gigafactory in Korea and bringing in American construction workers without filing for formal work visas in Korea, that would be unacceptable. This is very much the same thing.
If this is acceptable, then why don't we completely disregard H1B regulations when hiring in the tech industry?
Can someone give me a reason why we should allow Korea a special exemption on construction labor and not the rest of the EU, Japan, Taiwan, and other allies?
> Sounds like they need an OSHA raid. Maybe the NLRB too
They did. On multiple occasions under both Biden and Trump. But Hyundai would always shield their liability by creating a shell contracting/consulting firm to hire labor. If one got popped, another one would be spun up.
Heck, it took the DoJ almost 3 years to begin the prosecution against Hyundai and it's partners for using child labor in their Mississippi factory becuase of political interference.
The issue is Hyundai is one of the largest shipbuilders in the world, and "Make American Shipbuilding Great Again" has been a key Biden and Trump policy.
The Japanese shipbuilders chose to invest in Philippines and India over the US because they knew they'd face similar scrutiny over labor practices. Korean companies on the other hand decided to roll the dice.
> If Hyundai can do that, any American company could do it too.
Yet none of them who are working on peer projects to Hyundai-LG's did.
There are dozens of battery gigafactory projects in the US thanks to rhe IRA, but Hyundai-LG's are the only ones with a persistent pattern of labor abuse [0].
> needs to be addressed by putting the labor in chains
I am not disagreeing with you on that point. I am saying supporting that and then jumping to defend Hyundai-LG for breaking the law as well is hypocrisy
> maybe a team sent to Hyundai corporate to crack some heads (figuratively)
They are in South Korea, not the US. Furthermore, Hyundai consistently uses contracting/consulting firms to shield against liability, which was a major reason it took 3 years just to reach a point where the DoJ could begin prosecuting Hyundai for child labor in their MS factories
Again, it's not clear to me why "a persistent pattern of labor abuse" needs to be addressed by putting the labor in chains. That's like prosecuting rape victims for adultery or fornication. Labor abuse is a different problem requiring maybe a team sent to Hyundai corporate to crack some heads (figuratively). Put some of those guys in handcuffs.
> I am saying supporting that and then jumping to defend Hyundai-LG for breaking the law as well is hypocrisy
I think people are mostly supporting and defending the workers. So far Hyundai-LG hasn't lost anything except face. The workers are the ones who have taken the hit.
If Hyundai can do that, any American company could do it too. That's a deeper problem with the law, and one that can't be solved by putting random workers into detention centers. They're the ones getting injured, right?
One has to perversely love how this movement has morphed into the primary concern being negative-sum strict enforcement of broken immigration laws, including against countries we're hoping will transfer us expertise and technology. I thought the constructive goal was to restore US industrial capacity and manufacturing jobs? Maybe you should try holding this con artist to doing something positive for our country, rather than being distracted by a series of destructive spectacles.
I would honestly ask why you believe people of privilege should be allowed to ignore laws that are inconvenient?
You'll get no argument that our immigration laws aren't broken from me, but isn't it the purview of congress to change them? I'd even go a step further and say this is the root of the dysfunction in America. The belief that inconvenient laws should / can just be bypassed by a strong executive instead of placing pressure on a congress that is afraid to make any hard choices.
I don't subscribe to the "privilege" paradigm because it just feels like an emotional appeal for attacking anyone that has some modicum of resources or power, and that feels exactly what your first sentence is doing.
I agree with where you're coming from about congress and the executive. The difference is analogous to punching down vs punching up. If the system wants buy in (ie a mandate) from individuals, then it's the responsibility of the system (ie the politicians) to make a sensible set of rules. Take a look at drug criminalization - it's only the very myopic complaining about things like individuals not following nonsensical drug laws.
A multinational corporation obviously sits somewhere in the middle, which requires applying equitable judgement (hence why I called out the "privilege" label as a toxic paradigm). It sure feels like this is the government crushing what is otherwise mostly desirable behavior, behavior directly in line with the current administration's purported overall goals. And at any rate, the situation certainly could have been treated with a much lighter touch.
I HATE Trump, and was very closely aligned with the previous administration.
Even in the Biden admin we pushed back on Taiwanese companies like TSMC attempting something similar, as well as Hyundai after they were discovered using undocumented child labor to build one of their EV factories.
This exact raid would have happened even if Harris was in the White House right now.
> I thought the constructive goal was to restore US industrial capacity and manufacturing jobs
And deciding to almost exclusively use temporary Korean labor without the correct insurance and workman's comp contributions in order to set cement and lay pipe is adding American jobs?
European, Japanese, and Taiwanese projects of similar scope haven't done similar shenanigans.
> We understand bending of the rules to build things...
That'll hold up in court when an employee is crushed by falling steel while building a battery plant, like what happened at this Hyundai plant right before the raid (which the Guardian reports seems to have been done by OSHA inspectors annoyed at Hyundai's relative impunity) [0]
> I thought the constructive goal was to restore US industrial capacity and manufacturing jobs
Yes. Manufacturing speicifc news agencies have reported on this [0].
Korean and American unions have united to condemn the ICE raids [1], but that doesn't absolve Hyundai-LG for committing labor and immigration abuse.
> It seems grossly inefficient to me to send workers on B1s to pour cement.
It is WAY cheaper than paying the right insurance and US construction salairies ($20k-40k in SK versus $70k-90k in the Georgia).
> It's not just salaries though is it? There's hotels/accommodation, flights, per diems
That's at most $10k post-tax. Paying $70k-90k means also paying around an additional 0.25-0.5x in employer contributions depending on the state in the US.
By bringing in labor from Korea, they are being paid in Won, covered by insurance IN Korea (not the US), and all workman's comp has been paid IN Korea (not the US).
> so there'd be some language friction
Yep, but most of management and the chain in-between in Hyundai (and most Korean companies) are always Koreans or Korean diaspora. This has been a major friction in Vietnam and India as well, where Korean companies like Hyundai-Kia and Samsung would segregate Korean nationals and Korean origin personnel from locals (eg. Separate canteens, separate accommodations, separate per diems) even if they were doing the same work at the same level.
Samsung's chip design office in Gurgaon is notorious for this.
> which you edited later to remove)
I can't reply, so I'm in the process of replying via edits. I accidentally deleted it during the editing process
> Even Korean unions united with the UAW to condemn Hyundai-LG for this
The statement has a vague mention of the company forcing the workers to shoulder "visa risks". One sentence out of 5 paragraphs.
Most of the condemnation in that statement is about the actual raid. Even UAW, an American union, thought that went too far.
> It is WAY cheaper than paying the right insurance and US construction salairies ($20k-40k in SK)
It's not just salaries though is it? There's hotels/accommodation, flights, per diems. The churn of flying people back and forth. I presume Korean construction workers aren't necessarily fluent in English (I don't know how education there works) so there'd be some language friction. You might as well hire undocumented construction workers who are already in the country (which they have also been doing apparently).
> Yes. Manufacturing speicifc news agencies have reported on this
I read both your UAW/Korean union statement (which you edited later to remove) and the manufacturing dive source. Neither of them states what specific work the detained Korean workers were doing. Definitely no mention of mundane construction wors by Korean workers at this site specifically. Although it did state 23% of construction workers in the US are undocumented.
As I said, the media reporting on this has been extremely lax and vague about what actually happened. They either don't know how to report it or don't want people to know for whatever reason.
Okay, so let's not focus on strict application of the rules then. One of the main themes of Trumpism is using strict applications of rules as a cudgel to hurt people, and feel justified while doing so.
But this is Hacker News, right? We understand bending of the rules to build things. And the overriding constructive public policy goal here is reindustrialization.
To the extent LG is taking shortcuts with proper visa paperwork out of administrative expedience, that likely points to things that need to be reformed about the rules. To the extent that LG has been doing things directly contrary to public policy but now enforcement is stepping up, it would be better to address those things gradually without interrupting the project. Maybe still a surprise raid to catalog who is doing exactly what on the site, but then gradual "these guy needs to go, you've got two weeks to find local replacements" etc. The only point to doing a massive raid, arrest, detainment, and deportation is the spectacle.
> If the news was flipped and we saw a report that Tesla is building a gigafactory in Korea and bringing in American construction workers without filing for formal work visas in Korea, that would be unacceptable
If Seoul then shackled those workers and treated them in a way we’d find barely acceptable for POWs, you really think there wouldn’t be an irrational outburst in Washington?
It absolutely would have been a major political football in the US! And I'm in agreement that ICE's conduct was despicable.
What I'm annoyed at is people trying to argue that Hyundai-LG are guilt-free and did nothing wrong.
Both ICE and Hyundai-LG are in the wrong, but Hyundai-LG could have resolved this problem extremely early when it was flagged by the Biden administration.
Notice how Korean reporting is overwhelmingly about business implications and not at all about persistent issues of labor abuse within Hyundai America. Samsung America is equally as large (if not larger) yet has never had similar scandals year after year.
Laying pipe, pouring concrete, and other manual labor is not covered by the B1/2, VWP, or TN [0][1] visas, but Hyundai America and it's contractors continued to flout existing regulations and norms.
This had been a major pain point in the Biden administration as well.
If equally large and Korean Samsung SDI (as well as European, Japanese, and even Chinese conglomerates) can manage to build gigafactories in the US scandal free, other Korean conglomerates like Hyundai can as well.
Yep! But this isn't a "car run over becuase of a pencil" situation.
This is a federal overreach on a business that has broken major labor laws in the US.
And that's why I'm a bit miffed. In all this discuss about ICE's overreach, we are ignoring the very real and persistent disdain Hyundai America has for labor regulations.
It's almost like (rightful) opposition to ICE's overreach is being used to whitewash what is a very very bad employer.
In Korean business and political discourse, the anger isn't about the humanitarian aspect, but the "how dare they even try to do this to us because we have put in so much money".
Being angry about ICE because of overreach and treating labor bad is valid, but feeling slighted that money doesn't buy impunity is not a good reason to be annoyed, and betrays a level of callousness that is sadly all to common in Korea Inc.
Sources said at least 22 other factory sites involving Korean business groups, in autos, shipbuilding, steel and electrical equipment, have been nearly halted.
Not every non-citizen doing a job in a foreign country does so illegally. Like in this case.
What's wrong with foreigners, legally, with visums issued, building factories that then employ locals?
ESTA is the Electronic System for Travel Authorization, part of the Visa Waiver program.
Generally trying to get the right papers for something is trying to put the closest shaped peg into the oddly shaped hole.
Having once organized a small team across european borders during Covid, I've learned that it's actually pretty tricky to get papers that 100% correctly match what you need on the ground. Usually there's a bit of give and take needed on all sides to make the world turn.
An ESTA is not a visa. The USA publicly announces that Korean citizens have the right to enter the USA for up to 90 days for business or tourism. As we're seeing though, the real rule is "don't look foreign".
I love how they still try to be super polite about it:
"Korean workers are being treated like criminals for building factories that Washington itself lobbied for. If this continues, investment in the US could be reconsidered."
"could be reconsidered"
That's actually pretty hardcore.
Also keep in mind South Korea is dependent on the US for military protection.
> South Korea is dependent on the US for military protection
America is dependent on Japanese and South Korean shipyards in the event of a war of attrition in the Pacific.
And between NATO and Qatar, I think it’s fair to say that U.S. security guarantees aren’t currently worth much.
I wouldn’t be surprised if China decides to step into that role.
As the influence of America wanes, it’s a perfect opportunity for China.
And as we saw in the Pakistan - India conflict, their weapons work.
China is allied to North Korea, which South Korea is at war with.
They do have to reconsider it. Korea is very dependent on US investment, and if the USA stops investing in retaliation, it's Korea that suffers greatly.
Baffling. Why would a formerly robust ally not want to continue to make America great?
It's impossible to even know if this is sarcastic or not, at this point.
The only leverage countries have against the US is exporting something that the US wants. Rare earths, electronics, cars, etc.
If they are blackmailed via tariffs to build factories in the US so that the US becomes self-sufficient, there is no leverage at all. So don't build these factories.
European, Japanese, and Taiwanese companies have not done the same shenanigans that Hyundai Group and LG Group are doing with VWP and B1/2 visas.
If they can build battery factories, semiconductor fabs, and various other factories in the US without having to resort to the above visa abuses, why can't Korea Inc?
Heck, Daimler built a similar sized factory to Hyundai-LG's in MS relying only on American labor [0]
[0] - https://www.daimlertruck.com/en/newsroom/pressrelease/accele...
That’s a joint venture with two American manufacturers (and Daimler trucks North America itself was an American company it bought out), it’s not a realistic comparison.
Fine. Then how about Japan-domiciled Panasonic [0][1] and Toyota [2], as well as (South Korean) Samsung and Stellantis' gigafactory [3]?
You didn't see similar persistent flouting of labor and immigration laws despite all 3 being lead by Asian (and in some cases Korean) companies with similar organizational structures.
Hyundai played it fast and loose. If Samsung SDI can open a gigafactory in the US while following US laws, why can't Hyundai?
Just because ICE was extremely heavy-handed does NOT absolve or give Hyundai-LG the right to break American labor or immigration laws, or ask for special treatment.
Even Biden bluntly told Hyundai leadership to "Hire American" [4] following pushback over this plant.
[0] - https://na.panasonic.com/news/panasonic-energy-begins-mass-p...
[1] - https://www.desotoks.us/394/Panasonic-Electric-Vehicle-Batte...
[2] - https://www.toyota.com/usa/operations/map/tbmnc
[3] - https://news.samsungsdi.com/global/articleView?seq=36
[4] - https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3...
I must confess that these specific stories are outside my domain of knowledge that I can’t comfortably comment on them specifically.
My understanding is that it is fairly common practice for foreign companies to send experts from their home countries in order to do knowledge transfer, since the skill set isn’t available domestically.
https://x.com/_mm85/status/1964631794260857114
Yep! It is. The issue has been that Hyundai is trying to bring in long-term technician labor on VWP and B visas, when they should be classified under H2B or L1B.
And the added issue is, most other companies (even Korean ones like Samsung) have been able to bring comparable projects online without ending up with the same scandals.
Hyundai has a common and persistent practice of bringing in Koreans from Korea to work manual labor abroad, and was warned by regulators on multiple occasions about this [0], and even their employees in Korea warned management that they were breaking regulations [0]
Even during the Biden admin we warned Korean companies not to play it fast and loose [0]:
"U.S. Department of Commerce official Andrew Gately warned South Korean companies and their contractors last year not to "cut corners" in visa applications. "Please do not put your employees or the employees of your contractors at risk," he said at a seminar in Seoul."
This isn't a Kilmar Abrego Garcia situation, especially given that Korean business media is framing this as a "how dare they touch Koreans after we invest" situation instead of as a humanitarian situation. Why should FDI buy impunity - especially when projects like the Hyundai one were funded by IRA subsidizes.
Installing machinery does not fall under the B visa exemption [1]. An engineering manager advising on software would.
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/world-at-work/workers-say-k...
[1] - https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...
I see your concern, and taking what you’re asserting here as a given for the purposes of this conversation, I’d agree it needs to be addressed.
However, it should be addressed at the corporate level, not by targeting the individual workers. They are just doing their jobs under the direction of their employers. Any fraud committed here is by the Hyundai corporation first and foremost.
The treatment of these workers has been exceedingly cruel and should be considered out of bounds in this country, but sadly it has become normalized.
> it should be addressed at the corporate level
We've done this for over a decade with both Democrats and Republicans in power.
I agree that the treatment was horrendous, but Korean businesses and politicans aren't angry because of the treatment - they are angry because now they cannot use this practice any longer.
The same raid would have happened under the Harris administration, and the same political fallout would have happened.
Even South Korean police continue to use indefinite detention during immigration raids (despite the constitutional court ruling against them) and has notoriously horrid migrant labor rights, so it's very hypocritical when Korean workers arrested were given better conditions than Mongolian, Vietnamese, or Thai migrants caught in similar dragnets in Korea are provided, but there is no interest in Korea to leverage this to better Korea and American labor rights.
ICE has overreached, but then going back and defending Hyundai like a significant number of people are is deeply wrong. The UAw was right to both condemn Hyundai as well as ICE. Yet, a significant portion of people are saying Georgia should be thankful to get this kind of FDI (even though it was thanks to our tax dollars becuase of the IRA).
I’m well aware of the fact that these types of issues have been a part of the system for a long time, nowhere in my string of comments did I indicate that this was an issue of one administration nor one party, I was simply commenting on the case under discussion.
As an American I am not responsible for the actions of another nation, but I am for those of my own. Therefore it is immaterial to me how Korea treats immigrants, at least not when I am discussing the morality of our system.
Either you have a sense of what is right and wrong when it comes to our fellow human beings or you don’t. Feel free to criticize the actions of the Korean government if you want, that does not absolve the US of its own transgressions.
> You didn't see similar persistent flouting of labor and immigration laws...
Where's the evidence of this persistent flouting of immigration laws?
How do you that the other factories don't (or didn't) have the exact same issues & Hyundai was just the first factory that ICE chose to target?
Ok What's in it for these companies to give the US all their stuff?
I'm seeing a lot of demands form the US with the only upside being the privilege to sell stuff to Americans. What can they use those dollars to buy?
This plant [0] and others like it were all subsidized by the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) [1].
If our tax dollars are going to subsidize the construction and development of these factories, then they better follow our laws.
Hyundai is the only malcontent. Every other IRA project has not had a similar kind of scandal.
If Hyundai doesn't want to participate in American Industrial Subsidizes by following our laws, they can return the billions of dollars in subsidizes provided.
> I'm seeing a lot of demands
Follow our laws if you want our subsidizes.
Hire American if you want our subsidizes.
Biden literally told Hyundai's leadership this same thing point blank. [2]
[0] - https://www.ossoff.senate.gov/press-releases/sen-ossoff-lg-e...
[1] - https://e2.org/announcements/
[2] - https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3...
You also have to wonder how illegal immigration is managed in Korea. I'm going to assume they take a very different approach from what they are expecting from the US.
Then fine the companies and don’t shackle the workers.
This isn’t just going to impact our relationship with Korea, but also the rest of the world too.
Optics, in international relations, matter a lot.
> Then fine the companies and don’t shackle the workers
We have been for years now, but Hyundai has not changed their practices in the US.
From child labor [0] to employees literally crushed to death [1] to constant OSHA failures [2] for over a decade [3], Hyundai's leadership has continued to have a horrid track record on worker safety in the United States.
We have been punishing them for decades, but they do not change. If this is the only way to get a message across to Korea Inc, so be it.
> Optics, in international relations, matter a lot.
Of course.
Yet the optics of a company like Hyundai getting hundreds of millions to billions of dollars in state and federal subsidizes but continuing to flout US laws also matters.
As I mentioned before, Samsung hasn't had similar scandals despite investing a similar amount in the US, nor have Hyundai's peers in Japan.
Using the ICE raid to whitewash Hyundai's obscene labor record (like a number of commentators are doing) is ridiculous.
[0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/30/business/hyundai-child-la...
[1] - https://www.enr.com/articles/60802-third-fatality-recorded-a...
[2] - https://www.wsav.com/news/local-news/osha-construction-worke...
[3] - https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/osha/osha20161214-0
> Using the ICE raid to whitewash Hyundai's obscene labor record (like a number of commentators are doing) is ridiculous.
Using Hyundai's allegedly obscene labor record to whitewash the ICE raid seems similarly ridiculous.
They didn't whitewash anything, read their comment(s) again.
They said to punish the company, but not put hundreds of employees who were told their papers were in order - half of which whose papers were - in literal shackles like they're violent criminals. What the everyday person sees in their news feeds is important and shapes how the US is viewed culturally and as an economic partner.
I'll throw in that we should actually talk about fixing our VISA rules?
Its so strange how illegal immigration has been completely normalised in the minds of some people.
> "With H-1B and L-1 work visas, which are harder to obtain, in short supply, Korean firms have routinely rotated engineers through 90-day ESTA entries or short-term B-1 visas to meet tight construction schedules"
As I mentioned multiple times before, this is a callous disregard of US immigration and labor laws.
VW Group has built battery factories in the South as well, and Germany has VWP priviliges as well, but they never abused the VWP or B1/2 program. Same with Japan's Panasonic
Heck, Daimler has built a similar sized gigafactory in MS without resorting to similar shenanigans to Hyundai or LG [2]
This plant that Hyundai-LG has been building has seen multiple, persistent OSHA violations [0] at a rate that is severely higher than comparable projects in the US [1].
If the news was flipped and we saw a report that Tesla is building a gigafactory in Korea and bringing in American construction workers without filing for formal work visas in Korea, that would be unacceptable. This is very much the same thing.
If this is acceptable, then why don't we completely disregard H1B regulations when hiring in the tech industry?
Can someone give me a reason why we should allow Korea a special exemption on construction labor and not the rest of the EU, Japan, Taiwan, and other allies?
[0] - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/12/immigration-...
[1] - https://www.ajc.com/news/2025/06/construction-deaths-injurie...
[2] - https://www.daimlertruck.com/en/newsroom/pressrelease/accele...
Why are the only choices "allow Korea a special exemption on construction labor" and "put all Korean workers in chains without checking status"?
> This plant that Hyundai-LG has been building has seen multiple, persistent OSHA violations
Sounds like they need an OSHA raid. Maybe the NLRB too.
> Sounds like they need an OSHA raid. Maybe the NLRB too
They did. On multiple occasions under both Biden and Trump. But Hyundai would always shield their liability by creating a shell contracting/consulting firm to hire labor. If one got popped, another one would be spun up.
Heck, it took the DoJ almost 3 years to begin the prosecution against Hyundai and it's partners for using child labor in their Mississippi factory becuase of political interference.
The issue is Hyundai is one of the largest shipbuilders in the world, and "Make American Shipbuilding Great Again" has been a key Biden and Trump policy.
The Japanese shipbuilders chose to invest in Philippines and India over the US because they knew they'd face similar scrutiny over labor practices. Korean companies on the other hand decided to roll the dice.
> If Hyundai can do that, any American company could do it too.
Yet none of them who are working on peer projects to Hyundai-LG's did.
There are dozens of battery gigafactory projects in the US thanks to rhe IRA, but Hyundai-LG's are the only ones with a persistent pattern of labor abuse [0].
> needs to be addressed by putting the labor in chains
I am not disagreeing with you on that point. I am saying supporting that and then jumping to defend Hyundai-LG for breaking the law as well is hypocrisy
> maybe a team sent to Hyundai corporate to crack some heads (figuratively)
They are in South Korea, not the US. Furthermore, Hyundai consistently uses contracting/consulting firms to shield against liability, which was a major reason it took 3 years just to reach a point where the DoJ could begin prosecuting Hyundai for child labor in their MS factories
[0] - https://labornotes.org/2025/09/georgia-battery-plant-raid-sp...
Again, it's not clear to me why "a persistent pattern of labor abuse" needs to be addressed by putting the labor in chains. That's like prosecuting rape victims for adultery or fornication. Labor abuse is a different problem requiring maybe a team sent to Hyundai corporate to crack some heads (figuratively). Put some of those guys in handcuffs.
> I am saying supporting that and then jumping to defend Hyundai-LG for breaking the law as well is hypocrisy
I think people are mostly supporting and defending the workers. So far Hyundai-LG hasn't lost anything except face. The workers are the ones who have taken the hit.
If Hyundai can do that, any American company could do it too. That's a deeper problem with the law, and one that can't be solved by putting random workers into detention centers. They're the ones getting injured, right?
One has to perversely love how this movement has morphed into the primary concern being negative-sum strict enforcement of broken immigration laws, including against countries we're hoping will transfer us expertise and technology. I thought the constructive goal was to restore US industrial capacity and manufacturing jobs? Maybe you should try holding this con artist to doing something positive for our country, rather than being distracted by a series of destructive spectacles.
I would honestly ask why you believe people of privilege should be allowed to ignore laws that are inconvenient?
You'll get no argument that our immigration laws aren't broken from me, but isn't it the purview of congress to change them? I'd even go a step further and say this is the root of the dysfunction in America. The belief that inconvenient laws should / can just be bypassed by a strong executive instead of placing pressure on a congress that is afraid to make any hard choices.
I don't subscribe to the "privilege" paradigm because it just feels like an emotional appeal for attacking anyone that has some modicum of resources or power, and that feels exactly what your first sentence is doing.
I agree with where you're coming from about congress and the executive. The difference is analogous to punching down vs punching up. If the system wants buy in (ie a mandate) from individuals, then it's the responsibility of the system (ie the politicians) to make a sensible set of rules. Take a look at drug criminalization - it's only the very myopic complaining about things like individuals not following nonsensical drug laws.
A multinational corporation obviously sits somewhere in the middle, which requires applying equitable judgement (hence why I called out the "privilege" label as a toxic paradigm). It sure feels like this is the government crushing what is otherwise mostly desirable behavior, behavior directly in line with the current administration's purported overall goals. And at any rate, the situation certainly could have been treated with a much lighter touch.
I HATE Trump, and was very closely aligned with the previous administration.
Even in the Biden admin we pushed back on Taiwanese companies like TSMC attempting something similar, as well as Hyundai after they were discovered using undocumented child labor to build one of their EV factories.
This exact raid would have happened even if Harris was in the White House right now.
> I thought the constructive goal was to restore US industrial capacity and manufacturing jobs
And deciding to almost exclusively use temporary Korean labor without the correct insurance and workman's comp contributions in order to set cement and lay pipe is adding American jobs?
European, Japanese, and Taiwanese projects of similar scope haven't done similar shenanigans.
> We understand bending of the rules to build things...
That'll hold up in court when an employee is crushed by falling steel while building a battery plant, like what happened at this Hyundai plant right before the raid (which the Guardian reports seems to have been done by OSHA inspectors annoyed at Hyundai's relative impunity) [0]
> I thought the constructive goal was to restore US industrial capacity and manufacturing jobs
"The children yearn for the mines"
[0] - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/12/immigration-...
> use temporary Korean labor to set cement and lay pipe is adding American jobs
Media reporting on this has been kinda slipshod. Is that what actually happened? I was under the impression they were setting up imported machinery.
It seems grossly inefficient to me to send workers on B1s to pour cement.
> Is that what actually happened
Yes. Manufacturing speicifc news agencies have reported on this [0].
Korean and American unions have united to condemn the ICE raids [1], but that doesn't absolve Hyundai-LG for committing labor and immigration abuse.
> It seems grossly inefficient to me to send workers on B1s to pour cement.
It is WAY cheaper than paying the right insurance and US construction salairies ($20k-40k in SK versus $70k-90k in the Georgia).
> It's not just salaries though is it? There's hotels/accommodation, flights, per diems
That's at most $10k post-tax. Paying $70k-90k means also paying around an additional 0.25-0.5x in employer contributions depending on the state in the US.
By bringing in labor from Korea, they are being paid in Won, covered by insurance IN Korea (not the US), and all workman's comp has been paid IN Korea (not the US).
> so there'd be some language friction
Yep, but most of management and the chain in-between in Hyundai (and most Korean companies) are always Koreans or Korean diaspora. This has been a major friction in Vietnam and India as well, where Korean companies like Hyundai-Kia and Samsung would segregate Korean nationals and Korean origin personnel from locals (eg. Separate canteens, separate accommodations, separate per diems) even if they were doing the same work at the same level.
Samsung's chip design office in Gurgaon is notorious for this.
> which you edited later to remove)
I can't reply, so I'm in the process of replying via edits. I accidentally deleted it during the editing process
[0] - https://www.manufacturingdive.com/news/georgia-hyundai-jobsi...
[1] - https://uaw.org/kmwu-and-uaw-joint-statement-we-stand-united...
> Even Korean unions united with the UAW to condemn Hyundai-LG for this
The statement has a vague mention of the company forcing the workers to shoulder "visa risks". One sentence out of 5 paragraphs.
Most of the condemnation in that statement is about the actual raid. Even UAW, an American union, thought that went too far.
> It is WAY cheaper than paying the right insurance and US construction salairies ($20k-40k in SK)
It's not just salaries though is it? There's hotels/accommodation, flights, per diems. The churn of flying people back and forth. I presume Korean construction workers aren't necessarily fluent in English (I don't know how education there works) so there'd be some language friction. You might as well hire undocumented construction workers who are already in the country (which they have also been doing apparently).
> Yes. Manufacturing speicifc news agencies have reported on this
I read both your UAW/Korean union statement (which you edited later to remove) and the manufacturing dive source. Neither of them states what specific work the detained Korean workers were doing. Definitely no mention of mundane construction wors by Korean workers at this site specifically. Although it did state 23% of construction workers in the US are undocumented.
As I said, the media reporting on this has been extremely lax and vague about what actually happened. They either don't know how to report it or don't want people to know for whatever reason.
Okay, so let's not focus on strict application of the rules then. One of the main themes of Trumpism is using strict applications of rules as a cudgel to hurt people, and feel justified while doing so.
But this is Hacker News, right? We understand bending of the rules to build things. And the overriding constructive public policy goal here is reindustrialization.
To the extent LG is taking shortcuts with proper visa paperwork out of administrative expedience, that likely points to things that need to be reformed about the rules. To the extent that LG has been doing things directly contrary to public policy but now enforcement is stepping up, it would be better to address those things gradually without interrupting the project. Maybe still a surprise raid to catalog who is doing exactly what on the site, but then gradual "these guy needs to go, you've got two weeks to find local replacements" etc. The only point to doing a massive raid, arrest, detainment, and deportation is the spectacle.
> If the news was flipped and we saw a report that Tesla is building a gigafactory in Korea and bringing in American construction workers without filing for formal work visas in Korea, that would be unacceptable
If Seoul then shackled those workers and treated them in a way we’d find barely acceptable for POWs, you really think there wouldn’t be an irrational outburst in Washington?
It absolutely would have been a major political football in the US! And I'm in agreement that ICE's conduct was despicable.
What I'm annoyed at is people trying to argue that Hyundai-LG are guilt-free and did nothing wrong.
Both ICE and Hyundai-LG are in the wrong, but Hyundai-LG could have resolved this problem extremely early when it was flagged by the Biden administration.
Notice how Korean reporting is overwhelmingly about business implications and not at all about persistent issues of labor abuse within Hyundai America. Samsung America is equally as large (if not larger) yet has never had similar scandals year after year.
Laying pipe, pouring concrete, and other manual labor is not covered by the B1/2, VWP, or TN [0][1] visas, but Hyundai America and it's contractors continued to flout existing regulations and norms.
This had been a major pain point in the Biden administration as well.
If equally large and Korean Samsung SDI (as well as European, Japanese, and even Chinese conglomerates) can manage to build gigafactories in the US scandal free, other Korean conglomerates like Hyundai can as well.
[0] - https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-news/a-total-lie-mexican-en...
[1] - https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-news/lawsuit-says-hyundai-a...
Totally agree, this is an everyone is shitty here situation. But because of the overreaction by ICE, Hyundai is in some senses given a pass.
Like, if I run you over with my car for borrowing my pencil without asking, you’re forgiven for the faux pas.
Yep! But this isn't a "car run over becuase of a pencil" situation.
This is a federal overreach on a business that has broken major labor laws in the US.
And that's why I'm a bit miffed. In all this discuss about ICE's overreach, we are ignoring the very real and persistent disdain Hyundai America has for labor regulations.
It's almost like (rightful) opposition to ICE's overreach is being used to whitewash what is a very very bad employer.
In Korean business and political discourse, the anger isn't about the humanitarian aspect, but the "how dare they even try to do this to us because we have put in so much money".
Being angry about ICE because of overreach and treating labor bad is valid, but feeling slighted that money doesn't buy impunity is not a good reason to be annoyed, and betrays a level of callousness that is sadly all to common in Korea Inc.
and 8500 Americans will lose their jobs as a result.
Sources said at least 22 other factory sites involving Korean business groups, in autos, shipbuilding, steel and electrical equipment, have been nearly halted.
So all of their 'investment' was just illegal jobs for non-citizens?
Not every non-citizen doing a job in a foreign country does so illegally. Like in this case. What's wrong with foreigners, legally, with visums issued, building factories that then employ locals?
> Not every non-citizen doing a job in a foreign country does so illegally
Obviously.
> Like in this case.
I think the contention is that an ESTA is not a suitable visa for this sort of activity. How is what you're saying disproving that?
> What's wrong with foreigners, legally, with visums issued, building factories that then employ locals?
Nothing.
ESTA is the Electronic System for Travel Authorization, part of the Visa Waiver program.
Generally trying to get the right papers for something is trying to put the closest shaped peg into the oddly shaped hole.
Having once organized a small team across european borders during Covid, I've learned that it's actually pretty tricky to get papers that 100% correctly match what you need on the ground. Usually there's a bit of give and take needed on all sides to make the world turn.
In this case that process clearly broke down.
An ESTA is not a visa. The USA publicly announces that Korean citizens have the right to enter the USA for up to 90 days for business or tourism. As we're seeing though, the real rule is "don't look foreign".
> As we're seeing though, the real rule is "don't look foreign".
This statement is just completely disconnected from the reality of the diversity of the American work force.
This notion that Koreans are the victims of racial grievance politics isn't supported in the data.
Oh why did they arrest a factory of legal immigrant workers then?
An ESTA is a travel authorisation, not a right to start a job in the US.